6 Things I Hate About Love Hina . . .

[omorka]

As my long-term readers know, memeslayer and I have been 'round the horn a couple of times about several anime shows that he likes and that I can't stand. Love Hina is the prototypical example. Oh, I can list reams and reams of things in that particular show that I'm offended by - the stereotypical views of men and women, the casual violence, the implicit racism of the Kaolla Su character, etc., etc., etc. And I can do the same for a large number of other shows I can't stand. However, while discussing with the Spouse why I wasn't thrilled with the episode of an old (late 1980s) anime that wileras brought over tonight, I finally found a connecting thread for a large number (not all, but many) anime I can't stand.

If the main character is all of:

male

clumsy (either socially or physically, but usually both)

clueless

stupid (and I'm fairly harsh about what I consider stupid)

And the show is both:

shonen

either a romance or action with a strong romantic subplot

Then it has to have seriously badass plot, world, and character development or I'm simply not interested.

Unfortunately, this seems to link in with what Memeslayer was saying while he was here about the "audience identification character." Said AIC appears to have to be at least three of male, clumsy, clueless, and stupid.

Interestingly, if the main character is clumsy, clueless, and stupid, but female, it doesn't bother me - see also Fruits Basket and Maho Tsukai Tai!. Also, male, clumsy, and clueless are not sufficient to ruin a show for me if the character shows some intelligence; see RahXephon (although he's only socially clumsy, not so much physically). Even being a harem anime is not enough by itself - but the hero character for almost all harem shows meets the above definition.

Why? Not sure, although it has something to do with whether I can manage to root for a character (not identify with them - that doesn't happen very often - but care what the hell happens to them in the course of the show). Having characters I care about is a big issue for me for any show, anime or not. (I can't watch Azumanga Daioh because there's no plot at all, the world's not interesting, and I don't care about any of the characters, despite it not fitting the above formula.) The prototypical AIC is a character I want to flunk out of my class, not root for; in fact, on some level, I want to warn the female objects of the AIC's attention that he's likely to turn abusive later in the relationship. (That female character tend to slap the AIC a lot doesn't help - for me, it means the relationship is already violent and therefore something for both participants to run from, not something for the show to celebrate.)

So, thus my preference for shojo if the show's a romance. Note that if there's not a strong romantic plot or subplot, the above doesn't matter that much; I can watch and enjoy shonen action or drama without the above getting in the way, although having non-stupid, non-clueless characters helps.

The other thing that makes me hate a show is random visual crap. Between that and the above, my very low opinion of FLCL should surprise no one . . .

Comments

[memeslayer.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, if the main character is clumsy, clueless, and stupid, but female, it doesn't bother me...

That is interesting, because I have the opposite problem -- to me, clumsy, clueless, stupid males come off unlucky in life, while clumsy, clueless, stupid females look like they're reinforcing negative gender stereotypes. Even Sakura Kinomoto, an otherwise decent and well-rounded character, bothers me when she throws out "I'm good at athletics, but I hate math". But as long as a character is fundamentally good-hearted, I can still cheer for them. The stereotypical pervert character, on the other hand, annoys the hell out of me.

The prototypical AIC is a character I want to flunk out of my class, not root for...

Which is half the point. The universe (with you as an avatar) has to want the character to fail. Otherwise it's no fun. :-p Haven't you ever felt like you're mostly worthless and nobody likes you?

I'd be interested to hear your opinion of Tenchi Muyo, if you've seen it. (Have I asked you about it before?)

[moontyger.livejournal.com]

Haven't you ever felt like you're mostly worthless and nobody likes you?

See, I feel like this a lot, hence I can totally identify with characters like that and male or female doesn't really matter to me.

[omorka.livejournal.com]

But as long as a character is fundamentally good-hearted, I can still cheer for them.

I have incredible trouble seeing the AIC, as I've described him here, as fundamentally good-hearted. If he's still that clueless, then he's clearly not even trying; on some level, he doesn't care who he hurts, and that's a sign of sociopathy. Every single one of these characters screams "potential abuser" to me. (Often more than the "pervert" character in the same show does.)

Let me give an example: almost every one of these characters clearly thinks the universe owes him a girlfriend. That he might have to work at getting a girlfriend by actively doing nice things, rather than simply standing around and being male and a "nice guy," doesn't seem to occur to him; that women are people and not objects doesn't seem to occur to him. (That the women in the shows then typically act like spoiled princesses who take on the "object" role all too easily doesn't help.)


Haven't you ever felt like you're mostly worthless and nobody likes you?

Interesting question. I've certainly felt both of those things, but rarely if ever at the same time. In particular, I usually feel like nobody likes me, but I only feel like I'm mostly worthless when I have truly and royally Screwed Up. As a general rule, if a fictional Universe is smacking someone around and I can see an obvious source of karma on that person's part, as with the prototypical AIC, I assume that the fictional Universe has a Damn Good Reason for kicking that character around, and I expect them to show some spine and fix it - and they almost never do.

[memeslayer.livejournal.com]

If he's still that clueless, then he's clearly not even trying; on some level, he doesn't care who he hurts, and that's a sign of sociopathy.

Or he's the sort of person to whom social interaction and interpersonal understanding don't come naturally at all, and thus has an ingrained tendency to not notice he's screwing up until it's too late. Like, say, me. :-p I would also point out that AICs usually have very few friends, which doesn't help.

(They're also supposed to be comic exaggerations, which are inherently creepy if you take them seriously, but you probably knew that.)

Let me give an example: almost every one of these characters clearly thinks the universe owes him a girlfriend. That he might have to work at getting a girlfriend by actively doing nice things, rather than simply standing around and being male and a "nice guy," doesn't seem to occur to him; that women are people and not objects doesn't seem to occur to him.

Weaker versions of these views not uncommon in real life among older males who have never had a girlfriend. Having a girlfriend is something that's expected to happen to you. Never having had one (once you're old enough) is seen as a character flaw, and in fact is commonly used as an insult. So it's not really "the universe owes me a girlfriend", it's more like "I'm not a bad person, why am I being punished like this?" (too strong a phrasing, but you get the idea). Not a reasonable or healthy view by any stretch of the imagination, but pretty true to life.

Standing around waiting for a girlfriend to fall into your lap is also not uncommon -- in fact, it's what I spent the last decade doing. The part where it actually works is the wish fulfillment. Again, not reasonable, but true to life.

If you've never had one, a "girlfriend" tends to become more a mythical object than a person. But that's not uncommon at all. People also talk about wanting a "job", a "husband", a "house", or a "car" in much the same way.

All of the above, at least in my case, went away after I actually got a girlfriend. I think that in and of themselves they're pretty harmless, but I can see how they would turn you off.

[omorka.livejournal.com]

Yeah, given that I associate these sorts of attitudes with abusers, thinking of them as "harmless" isn't really an option for me. Granted that many guys manage to have those attitudes and not descend to abuse, and do eventually outgrow them, but I'm not convinced that they're the rule and not the exception. That core sense of entitlement is, I think, very, very dangerous.

At any rate, whether glorifying those attitudes or allowing them to work to the point of delivering you the perfect robot/goddess/witch/alien girlfriend in fiction is actively harmful or not, it clearly makes me Not The Target Audience for the anime in question, at the very least.

[memeslayer.livejournal.com]

That core sense of entitlement is, I think, very, very dangerous.

I see what you're getting at, but I really don't think "entitlement" is the right concept. It's a societal expectation that in order for a male to be a decent well-rounded human being he has to have or be able to "get" a girlfriend, just like he has to have a job. Not that that's much healthier...

...it clearly makes me Not The Target Audience for the anime in question, at the very least.

This was never in doubt. You are female, after all. :-p

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

You might be interested in reading this post (http://www.livejournal.com/users/starcat_jewel/143391.html) of mine from a few months ago; if you read it, please also read the two posts linked from the first paragraph.

If you're female and much over age 25, there's a significant chance that those attitudes in a man will indeed be very off-putting, for precisely the reason omorka indicates: you'll have encountered them too many times in men who later proved to be abusive to yourself or others. After a while, one starts reading it as a "marker trait", whether that's 100% accurate or not.

[moontyger.livejournal.com]

Here I go, disagreeing all over your journal... sorry. :(

I have incredible trouble seeing the AIC, as I've described him here, as fundamentally good-hearted. If he's still that clueless, then he's clearly not even trying; on some level, he doesn't care who he hurts, and that's a sign of sociopathy. Every single one of these characters screams "potential abuser" to me. (Often more than the "pervert" character in the same show does.)

Oh boy. You do realize that your above description describes every single geeky male I have known, as well as every man I have dated? If I avoided men like this, I'm not sure I would have had a date yet, plus I would have had to avoid all men who share my interests, as well as common experiences. And while I have had some abusive relationships, all of them were not and in fact it is deeply unfair to some of the men I have dated to characterize them this way. But from these characteristics, there is no way to tell the abusers apart from those who are not.

The fact is that many people, myself included, are deeply stupid when it comes to other people, especially when young. I think of myself when I was a teenager and shudder at how clueless I was! There really isn't malice in it, nor does it mean we don't care; we really don't understand. And when people assume there is malice and treat us that way, we are then hurt and even more confused. I will still freely admit I don't really understand most people, though I try.

Let me give an example: almost every one of these characters clearly thinks the universe owes him a girlfriend. That he might have to work at getting a girlfriend by actively doing nice things, rather than simply standing around and being male and a "nice guy," doesn't seem to occur to him; that women are people and not objects doesn't seem to occur to him.

Once again, this describes every geeky guy I have known. The problem here tends to be largely cultural rather than individual. Shy guys want a girlfriend, but the only way they can see that girlfriends are obtained is by doing things they are afraid to do and often that aren't true to who they are (being a popular extroverted jock, in general). But this is a patriarchal culture, so they still feel entitled to a woman. To really fix this attitude, we have to change the culture that spouts it. I can't entirely blame guys who have little contact with women for believing this; women get caught up in cultural BS, too.

To a certain extent, I admit that this attitude increasingly annoys me as well. However, on an individual level (as opposed to a cultural one, where I think we seriously need to work on changing it), I think it is only really something to worry about in regards to a guy's attitudes towards women when said guy has actually had a girlfriend. Most tend to learn better once they have the actual experience and the time around a woman that having a girlfriend entails teaches them that women really are people. It is those that don't learn after this that you have to watch out for. But getting back to anime, the AIC does not tend to fit this category, largely because much of the humor is supposed to derive from his lack of understanding and fear of women.

[omorka.livejournal.com]

Don't worry about disagreeing. :) It's only a problem if it descends to name-calling.

Having said that, let me somewhat unkindly measure those of your previous SOs whom I can remember offhand against my definition of the AIC. (Please understand that I realize some of these judgments are harsh, particularly on the final criterion. Please also forgive me for getting some of them out of chronological order.)

MZ - male, not clumsy, clueless, not stupid. Not an AIC; had too much of the Byronic mad-bad-and-dangerous-to-know vibe going on. Really more of the faux-bad-guy that the AIC often has to overcome to "get the girl."

NB - male, somewhat clumsy, fairly clueless, stupid. Artistic. Definitely the potential to be a specialty AIC. I would classify some of what he did to you as emotionally abusive.

SH (yeah, I know he has an LJ but I don't feel like looking for it) - male, not particularly clumsy, not clueless, stupid. Not an AIC. Abusive and an all-around serious ass.

teegarden - male, occasionally clumsy, not usually clueless, not stupid. Not an AIC.

shadowknt (I think that's him, anyway) - male, socially clumsy, abysmally clueless, stupid. Very much an AIC. I think he was clearly emotionally abusive.

briareos - male, somewhat clumsy, clueless when you found him (he grew a lot), not stupid. Has some AIC potential, but really he's too smart to be one - and he actually underwent character development, which they're not really ever allowed to do.

wileras - male, not particularly clumsy except where cats are involved, clueless only in specific areas, not stupid. Not an AIC.


Oh, and just so it doesn't look like I'm picking on you:

RTB3 - male, very clumsy, very clueless, stupid in some areas. A near-prototypical AIC. Physically and emotionally abusive, at least at the time.

[moontyger.livejournal.com]

And yet all but 3 of those you named definitely fit the profile of expecting a girlfriend to fall into their lap, without thinking they needed to do anything to bring this about (along with the basic tendency to regard women more as objects that often goes with this view). Most of them got over it, but I have had a tendency to be the first girlfriend for guys who are generally old enough to feel they should have had one by now and this attitude is very common, along with a general shallowness about women. Most do learn better once they have actually been in a relationship and it is because of this that I don't think it is a sign of an abuser.

As well, teegarden is more clueless than you realize, I think, or was at that time. And I could go on, but that's not the point, other than different people perceive others differently.

I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by stupid and how it differs from some of the other areas.

I do think some AICs do grow throughout the series; at least in the better-written series they do.

[moontyger.livejournal.com]

Hmm, the above doesn't seem true for me; but then again, I am both physically and socially clumsy [and gods know I have been colossally stupid, especially at the age most of these characters are supposed to be (15, a very stupid age)], so I can identify with said characters. This means you really may not like Maburaho, at least initially, although the plot does get pretty serious later.

OTOH, yay for more shojo romances! :)

Me, I am seriously not much on random crap. I want there to be an actual plot and characters with some depth, please. For something short, humor can make up for these, but for a whole series, not so much. Thus my dislike of Azumanga Daioh and Excel Saga.